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September 6, 2016

You be DOJ: after SCOTUS reversal, should former Virginia Gov Bob McDonnell be tried for corruption again?

The "you-be-the-judge"-type question in the post is prompted by this Washington Post article headlined "U.S. attorney’s office recommends putting Robert McDonnell on trial again." Here is the basic context:

Less than three months after the Supreme Court vacated the convictions of former Virginia governor Robert F. McDonnell, the U.S. attorney’s office that prosecuted the Republican has recommended to Justice Department higher-ups that they endeavor to try him again, according to people familiar with the case.

The recommendation from the U.S. attorney’s office in the Eastern District of Virginia does not guarantee that McDonnell will once again have to battle corruption charges in court.  The decision ultimately rests with senior officials at the Justice Department, including the deputy attorney general and possibly the attorney general.  But it is a significant step that demonstrates how despite a Supreme Court ruling upending McDonnell’s convictions and significantly narrowing what can be considered public corruption, the prosecutors who convinced jurors that he was guilty the first time believe they could do it once more.

An attorney for McDonnell, a Justice Department spokeswoman and a spokesman for the U.S. attorney’s office all declined to comment.  Asked in an interview earlier this week whether she would accept the recommendation of prosecutors who handled the case — whatever that might be — Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch said, “That’s working its way through the process, so I’m not able to give you a comment on that.”

Prosecutors have until Sept. 19 to formally inform the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit what they intend to do and — if they are going forward — to set a briefing schedule.

McDonnell and his wife, Maureen, were convicted in 2014 of public corruption charges after jurors concluded that they lent the power of the governor’s office to Richmond business executive Jonnie R. Williams Sr. in exchange for $177,000 in loans, vacations and luxury goods.  Prosecutors alleged that the McDonnells helped Williams specifically by arranging meetings for him with other state officials and allowing him to host an event at the governor’s mansion to promote a product he was trying to sell. In one case, prosecutors alleged, the governor pulled out a bottle of that supplement, Anatabloc, and told other state officials that it worked for him....

Justice Department officials are probably weighing not only whether a case could be brought again but also whether it should. McDonnell’s first trial spanned five weeks, and it came after months of bitter and time-consuming pretrial litigation. Four prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia and the Justice Department’s public integrity section were consumed by it.  McDonnell was ultimately sentenced to two years in prison; his wife to a year and a day.

And from the case came a unanimous Supreme Court ruling that experts say makes prosecuting politicians on corruption charges substantially more difficult than it was before.  It is possible more successful challenges could lead to a further narrowing of corruption laws and hamper other investigations.  The Supreme Court’s ruling dealt a critical blow to the case against McDonnell but not an immediately fatal one.  The court decided that jurors were wrongly instructed on the meaning of the term “official act” — the thing that prosecutors were required to prove McDonnell did or tried to do for Williams in exchange for the businessman’s favors — and offered a definition far more narrow than what jurors had considered....

McDonnell’s defense attorneys had wanted the case to be thrown out wholesale on the grounds that prosecutors had presented insufficient evidence of an official act.  But the Supreme Court declined to do that, saying both sides had not had an opportunity to address the question in light of the court’s clarified definition.

And the opinion offered a possible way forward. While setting up meetings or calling other government officials could not be official acts by themselves, Roberts wrote, they could serve as evidence of an agreement to perform such an act — if, for example, jurors concluded the meeting helped show an official was attempting to pressure or advise another official to do something more....

If the Justice Department allows prosecutors to go forward, they will first have to convince the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit that there is enough evidence to proceed — which is no guarantee. That decision itself could be appealed to the Supreme Court.  And if they ultimately go to another trial, prosecutors would have to recalibrate how they present their case, focusing less on the meetings and events themselves than on how they show that Williams and McDonnell had broader plans.  That will not be easy. Roberts noted in the opinion that several McDonnell subordinates had testified at trial that the governor “asked them to attend a meeting, not that he expected them to do anything other than that.”

For a variety of reasons, I am inclined to conclude that the former Gov has, at least in some sense, already been punished enough. And, I am especially inclined to say I am not so keen on having the feds spend a lot more of my tax dollars going hard again after someone who poses no threat to public safety. But perhaps others view public corruption concerns differently, and thus the sincere question in the title of this post.

September 6, 2016 at 03:08 PM | Permalink

Comments

Doug, you owe me an apology. Associating me with the alt-right was wrong, and you should know better.

As for this, why would they want to re-prosecute--what McDonnell did was wrong but not criminal. Where prosecutors prosecute for what is wrong but not criminal (e.g., George Zimmerman), we slip towards tyranny.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 6, 2016 3:40:41 PM

A question for me would be if someone who did the same thing (basically) that he did is a "threat to public safety" and per a past thread, just what that means.

Now that he is no longer in office (this might also applies to two leaders of the NY legislature that might benefit from the ruling too), perhaps, it is not worthwhile to continue to carry out a prosecution. But, for someone who is in office (or might soon return w/o the black mark of a prosecution), it might be different.

Posted by: Joe | Sep 6, 2016 4:07:52 PM

The fact that the Governor is no longer in office and has been "tainted" by being accused seem to me to be red herrings. The purpose of a prosecution is not to "taint" somebody with the public accusation. (That's not to say that some prosecutors in some locations have not done that from time to time.) As the charge should not have been filed for the sole purpose of muddying the Governor's name, it should not be dropped merely because the public scandal created by the charge has had that effect.

The questions to me seem to be: 1) whether the government has enough evidence to show the quid pro quo under the revised standard; and 2) whether using the legal system to police pay-to-play is a valid use of government resources. Given that pay-to-play accusations are being made about both presidential candidates, it seems that pay-to-play is still a significant problem, worthy of resources. A former government official should not be immune from the consequences of abusing the public trust merely because they safely made it to the end of the term.

Posted by: tmm | Sep 6, 2016 5:08:37 PM

As to the third comment.

I don't find the purpose to "taint" a person with a public accusation though that very well might happen & it factors in (as the professor referenced) the "punishment" already suffered. No, it shouldn't "solely" or at all be about "muddying" names.

The article referenced speaks of "public corruption" interests. If so, to me, it is relevant (if not the ONLY thing involved) if the person is in office. A person in office that violates the law (esp. if it is a borderline case) can be more at risk to public interests there than someone out of office, especially if return is unlikely.

There is a deterrent and just deserts argument too as there would be if it was about some drug dealer who is out of the biz and not likely to return. Thus, the professor speaking of how he was "punished enough" (providing those things to some extent). He isn't "immune" merely because he is at the end of the term. He is immune in that regard since he was "punished enough" (though DB didn't provide full details). Again, maybe he wasn't punished enough to advance the interests provided.

But, let's be clear what is at stake here.

Posted by: Joe | Sep 6, 2016 5:44:42 PM

I agree with TMM's remarks in their entirety.

"A person in office that violates the law (esp. if it is a borderline case) can be more at risk to public interests there than someone out of office, especially if return is unlikely."

This claim fundamentally misunderstands how politics and the political-lobbyist merry-go-round works. A former politician can still wield enormous influence in the corridors of government powers, the drug dealer analogy is woefully inapt.

Posted by: Daniel | Sep 6, 2016 8:27:38 PM

I did not say that a person could only be dangerous in this context if they are in office. I said a person "can" be more dangerous in office than out. Well aware of the power of lobbyists. But, a person in various respects, given specific powers of the office, "can" be more dangerous if they misuse their power while in office.

Your criticism of me imho is an overblown critique of one thing I said. The drug dealer reference is not meant to be completely on point. But, even there, someone not dealing drugs is still very well liable to be a threat for comparable reasons -- their specific connections to the black market, basic tendencies and so forth.

Posted by: Joe | Sep 6, 2016 11:24:22 PM

I have a question for the crowd here. Sorry for a)being a little tardy in my question and b)being a relative novice in discussions such as these but something about this post got me thinking about the larger implications of SCOTUS in the past few years...

When I look at the decisions in Citizens United, McCutcheon v FEC and then more recently the McDonnell ruling I can't help but see some threads re: the growing insularity of the political class and their ever growing distance from "normal" people. I think that the above comments about lobbyists and their revolving door into government positions underscore the importance of the topic.

Does it seem to any of you that lately the judiciary seems like some of it's rulings are, intentionally or not, making it harder to effectuate the kind of grassroots reforms that groups like BLM, Occupy and (arguably) now the more mainstream leftwing movement are trying to accomplish?

I'm not trying to say that it's a conspiracy by any means I just wonder if this isn't another example of an argument that is sometimes made that lifetime appointments to the bench might make judges too unaccountable in their decisions - I'd love to hear any of your thoughts!

Posted by: JRB | Sep 7, 2016 12:17:48 AM

Figures, Doug, that you would run away from your reprehensible comment associating me with the "alt-right." Of course, that smear keeps you from having to answer hard questions about Barack Obama's personal culpability for the predations of Kesler Dufrene.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 7, 2016 7:16:59 AM

@JRB

Yes. Your insight is correct. What you are observing is what political scientists and legal scholars refer to as the process of "entrenchment". If you go to SSRN and search for that keyword there are oodles of papers on the topic.

In fact, although we now associate the doctrine of judicial restraint with conservative politics that is not the way it was initially conceived. Judicial restraint was initially a legal doctrine propounded by liberal and progressive groups in the 1800s who wanted the court to stop use the Constitutions as a means to kill reform legislation.

Posted by: Daniel | Sep 7, 2016 11:33:55 AM

Federalist:

I don't read every comment thread. In the thread to what post were you associated with the alt-right?

Posted by: Fred | Sep 7, 2016 12:46:17 PM

Actually, since the prosecution was originally concocted with the sole purpose of disqualifying McConnell from pursuing a federal office such as senator or even president (or vice-presidential consideration), it would presume that any subsequent prosecution could certainly be tainted with such political pandering. While the primary focus of this blog is to drill down on the legal points on the case or other such cases, one can also look at the big picture as to the reasons such cases are brought out in the first place. The fact that the Supreme Court, with arguably four of the most creatively interpretating justices in SCOTUS history even agreeing with, arguably, the two most originally interpretating justices left in SCOTUS history, should be a screaming tell.

Posted by: Eric Knight | Sep 7, 2016 1:28:37 PM

Fred, in a comment thread at Crime & Consequences, I suggested federalist read some alt-right web materials. I did not mean this as an insult, as I readily admit that I read alt-right materials. Thus, I do not really think I "owe" federalist anything. But I am more than happy to say I am sorry if I hurt federalist' delicate feelings.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 7, 2016 1:58:54 PM

Doug, once again, the slipperiness. This is what you wrote:

"Sorry you find it annoying, federalist, not to have a discussion in the alt-right echo chamber, but I hope you at least appreciate hearing another perspective on these matters."

That's a little more than saying I read those things. The "echo chamber" comment presumes that I participate and like the content of those places (tbh, I am not even sure what is 'alt-right'--Hillary made some claim about it, but I didn't dig too deep into it), which I am told are fever swamps of racism.

Isn't there some basic level of honesty that is required when it comes to debate?

Posted by: federalist | Sep 7, 2016 2:32:25 PM

federalist, here is a link to a page I received from the American Liberty Report about the meaning of "alt-right," http://www.americanlibertyreport.com/articles/who-is-the-alt-right/. Here is what it has to say at its start:

***Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has begun to call out a new enemy in some of her speeches, referring to a group she had previously not named in any of her press releases or public statements. The group’s name? The much-discussed but somewhat undefined “Alt-Right.”

The “Alt-Right,” sometimes short for “alternative right-wing,” is a loose collection of conservative-minded, Internet-savvy people who aren’t afraid to express their opinion, especially online — and especially if it might be deemed controversial.

Alt-Righters are tired of social justice warriors and political correctness champions ruling the day on campuses and in the press by dint of the fact that there’s usually no one who dares to publicly oppose them. They seek to use new media and social networks to spread their message in ways that in the past might have been considered subversive or previously identified with the left.****

This passage reinforces that alt-right is not in anyway an insult, but rather an fairly accurate description of much of the blogging/commentary at Crime & Consequences --- namely "a loose collection of conservative-minded, Internet-savvy people who aren’t afraid to express their opinion, especially online — and especially if it might be deemed controversial."

So, have I really associated you with anyone other than those on the right involved in "us[ing] new media and social networks to spread [your] message"? Again, I am genuinely sorry, federalist, if I really hurt your feelings by using this (confusing?) term. But are you really eager to assert that every speaker should "owe an apology" whenever that speaker uses a term (seemingly accurately) that the listener misunderstands and takes offense to? Geez, so much for a robust debate.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 7, 2016 3:01:14 PM

I'm not convinced they couldn't get another conviction under the new standard (goods and services exchanged hand from what the witness testified was a corrupt bargain, regardless of what McDonnell ultimately accomplished), but I suspect the conviction wouldn't survive appellate review. If it gets reversed twice (or he gets acquitted), it'll look even more like a witch hunt. It's better to call their losses where it is.

Posted by: Erik M | Sep 7, 2016 3:03:34 PM

Alt-right currently defies definition except anything conservative other than GOP, and in particular Trump types. Its origin is most likely with more modern, white-collar white supremacist types: the "redpill" folks. The latter might be offensive, but is clearly not the definition the professor was using.

Posted by: Fat Bastard | Sep 7, 2016 3:21:32 PM

Doug, stop. Please stop. First of all, reading those blogs is not the same as being happy about being in an echo chamber. So you were disingenuous there. And that Hillary Clinton is denigrating the "alt-right" is all I need to know. The "echo chamber" comment is obviously wrong, and you're using a charged term. The "who, moi?" response is, quite frankly, beneath you.

And you still cannot answer whether Obama has personal culpability for the predations of Kesler Dufrene.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 7, 2016 6:17:51 PM

"it seemed a lot of what I consider "alt-right" websites starting popping up (and informing me Hillary Clinton will be dying real soon)."

This is a contemporaneous description of what you thought "alt-right" referred to.

All I can say is wow.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 7, 2016 6:21:32 PM

And C&C is about the biggest echo chamber on the entire internet. I can hear it from here.

Posted by: Fat Bastard | Sep 7, 2016 7:39:44 PM

Fat bastard, that's simply not true. Why do you clown yourself with such nonsense? There is serious discussion of the issues on that site.

What I find mystifying--all you people whining about ad hominem argument (really, you're just whining about ad hominem--I generally don't resort to the logical fallacy of ad hominem argument--rather, I argue, then I assess what the person should be called) should look at what Doug did here and ridicule him. By saying that I was in the "alt-right echo chamber," he's engaging in ad hominem argument. Weak. And his defense of the ad hominem--pathetic. It's there for all to see, but because you guys don't agree with me, you'll let that nonsense pass.

None of you have any credibility.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 8, 2016 9:20:58 AM

Doug,

Your pathetic effort is akin to calling someone a Nazi while claiming that you are not also calling the person anti-Semitic. After all, a definition of Nazi is, "a member of the fascist National Socialist German Workers' Party, which was founded in 1919 and seized political control in Germany in 1933 under Adolf Hitler."

Hey! It doesn't say anti-Semitic!

Your defense is nothing but lawyerly BS. As federalist pointed out, you did not say that he read an alt-right blog or two. You implied he was in the alt-right echo chamber. Alt-rightists live in alt-right echo chambers, not liberals, conservatives, etc.

You now owe him an apology on two websites. Unfortunately, you are just not enough of a gentleman to do the right thing.

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 8, 2016 10:13:41 AM

thanks Tarls--I think Doug did this deliberately---I don't think he wants a discussion about why he thinks that the measure of success for releasing criminals from prison early is that they don't commit triple murders.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 8, 2016 12:16:48 PM

I am so sorry for stirring up this alt-right s**t storm.
As to the question posed in the title to the post, yes I think McDonnell should be re-tried. This election cycle has clearly revealed the corrosive and corrupting effect of money in general and the cynical manipulations of both donors and candidates to circumvent the law. In this situation, every prosecutable case, no matter how problematic, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. Right now the candidates are laughing "no quid pro quo", then no corruption. They must be forced to defend this argument at every opportunity.

Posted by: Fred | Sep 8, 2016 1:11:27 PM

ah, fred, the call to tyranny--let's prosecute because we don't like the law . . . .

The DoJ prosecution impacted the election--and DoJ's theory of the case was unanimously rejected--one would think that would raise the hackles of allegedly good government people like yourself. But nope.

Didn't we see enough of this BS with the prosecution of Ted Stevens and John Edwards?

Posted by: federalist | Sep 8, 2016 1:45:32 PM

Federalist:

Haven't you been paying attention?
Actually a more accurate expression than "money in politics" is "capital flows in politics".
I meant what I wrote above: anytime these people fail to color within the lines, then they're prosecuted, as diligently and aggressively as street drug dealers - no exceptions.

Posted by: Fred | Sep 8, 2016 4:53:18 PM

JRB,

I would disagree about CU at least. When you look at the facts behind CU (a rather modest group putting together an anti-HRC campaign) the decision seems about as far from insulating a political class as it gets. Just because the word "corporation" is used does not mean the named outfit has deep pockets in any traditional sense.

Posted by: Soronel Haetir | Sep 8, 2016 5:27:09 PM

"in this situation, every prosecutable case, no matter how problematic, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible."

my comment stands

Posted by: federalist | Sep 8, 2016 7:42:49 PM

Federalist:

Another thing you should read a comment before you riff on it. I wrote "the candidates are laughing no quid pro quo, then no corruption". You're a lawyer, what's wrong with this?

It's true that no proof of "quid pro quo" means no prosecutable criminal case. But does this also mean no corruption? Or stated differently, does no prosecutable criminal case mean no corruption?

What do you think?

Posted by: Fred | Sep 8, 2016 7:49:15 PM

Fred, I think my comment stands---your fig leaf can't disguise your zeal to prosecute when prosecution isn't right. John Edwards was a victim of that. The prosecution of Edwards was disgusting. McDonnell's prosecution was a little less disgusting, but disgusting nonetheless.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 9, 2016 9:30:30 AM

Tarls and federalist: it seem you think I have done some great offense (i.e., something "reprehensible" and "disengenuous" and "pathetic") when I suggested that federalist spends time reading (and perhaps commenting) in alt-right fora in which much posting/commentary focuses on variations of Obama/Hillary/Dems/Establishment-GOP-bashing without many providing a different perspective. I have yet to hear if federalist in fact does spend time reading/commenting in these fora, but I certainly did not mean to assert or even suggest that anyone who follows (or even comments on) these websites is vile or evil or a white-nationalist or a racist or anything else disreputable. Indeed, I have as friends persons (including some former students) who I respect intellectually and morally who have written commentary on what seem like alt-right websites and/or who send me links about interesting issues in sentencing/politics that the alt-right is covering better than the mainstream GOP/Dem press.

Moreover, my comment came at the end of a long thread in which federalist was persistently complaining that I was "pivoting" when talking about whether Obama and/or others were to blame for offenses committed by federal crack offenders released early under the FSA. In that thread, federalist brought up the name "Kesler Dufrene," a name I did not recognize. I googled that name, and up came a lot of sites like "ninjapundit" and others that might be (proudly?) considered alt-right sites. That federalist brought up an immigration case from 5 years ago in the midst of a sentencing discussion struck me as a pivot a kin to what might occur in an "alt-right echo chamber" when one wants to keep bashing on Obama/Hillary/Dems/Establishment-GOP.

So, I continue to assert, with all genuineness and honestly, that I did not use the phrase "alt-right" as a smear but as a way to reference certain media that seemed to continue to bring up the name federalist raised (and seem often to only reflect an anti-D viewpoint). And I state, with all genuineness and honestly, that if this phrase is understood by federalist as a term comparable to Nazi, I am sincerely sorry. I neither think this is what most people think the (vague) term means, and it was not my intent to use the term this mean way.

But, like other terms (e.g., "Redskins" or "girl"), I recognize that terms like alt-right that I might not find offensive may be heard as offensive to others. If I did indeed offend federalist and/or Tarls with my term, I do indeed fully apologize for the offense I caused by my use of a term fraught apparently with vile meaning as heard by some.
In the lengthy thread in which I used the phrase, I was trying to make a snide remark about federalist ALWAYS responding to my comments by asserting that I am pivoting. I am never quite sure of what he means by that, except that I often seek to respond to his Obama-bashing comments by saying that the reasons for his Obama

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 9, 2016 9:55:53 AM

If you repeat a lie long enough many will believe it. That seems to be your philosophy.

1) Once again, you did not merely state that federalist "spends time reading" alt-right websites. You stated he was part of the alt-right "echo chamber," a far more severe claim.

Alt-rightists live in alt-right echo chambers, not liberals or conservatives.

2) You keep going on about how you did not mean anything negative with the comment, but your own original comment says it all. Your sarcastic comment about "Hillary dying" showed what you (correctly, in my judgement) think about the alt-right nutty conspiracy theories and wrongly accused federalist of being a part of.

You essentially redefined what you said into something more palatable and then apologized for that instead of what you ACTUALLY said.

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 9, 2016 2:17:51 PM

Unlike here, for example, there isn't much debate on C&C; it's mostly Otis and his sycophants blaming "libruls" at every turn, except when the good Perfessor occasionally gets going. It is an echo chamber, imo.

Posted by: Fat Bastard | Sep 9, 2016 6:35:17 PM

Again, Tarls, you strangely continue to find "severe" what was (1) perhaps an accurate statement -- that federalist engages in discussions on alt-right websites --- and (2) not intended or likely perceived as a smear by anyone other than you. I have sought to explain what I said, not redefine it, and I continue to wonder why you are so put off by a term that seems an apt description for how federalist often talks in various on-line fora.

I tend to think of some liberals as softies for taking excessive offense, but now I am thinking you, Tarls, should be considered King of greivence in this setting. Moreover, I have said repeatedly that I am sorry if you or federalist took offense from my use of a term in a way that seemed largely fitting to me, but apparently gets you terribly bothered. I really try to bring more light than heat to conversations, but it seems I used a term that just got you (and federalist?) hot and bothered. Perhaps you can suggest for me some kind of trigger warning I should use before using terms you might get upset about.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 9, 2016 7:05:34 PM

Doug, we can explain it to you, we cannot understand it for you. But I rather like your continued wiggling. At the risk of mixing metaphors your wriggling gets you deeper in the whole.

Let's look at the first bit of revisionist history--shall we? On this thread, you, in the "who, moi?" tone took the position that your comment on C & C was that I read "alt-right" blogs. But that's not true---you said that I participated in the alt-right echo chamber. There's a mile of difference between those two things. (And what evidence do you have that I fancy an echo chamber of any kind?).

Now on to the second--you backtrack when it comes to what the "alt-right" is. Over at C & C, you seem to have thought it was a bunch of crazy places that think Hillary is going to die. Now here, you provide a sanitized version of what you thought. Nice try.

Your problem, to be blunt, is that you cannot admit to when you're just wrong and you engage in silly sophistry to throw up an impenetrable barrier of wordy nonsense. Since you seem incapable of simply admitting that, you should probably eschew saying nonsense in the first place. For example, your comment that you are surprised that there aren't more Callahans over at C & C. Then you go on to say that because more of those released haven't committed triple murders, a government program (i.e., releasing criminals) has a 99.9% success rate. That's just stupid, as it presupposes that a rational measure of success is that the released criminal not have committed triple murder.

As for pivoting, that refers to your use of a non-defense defense and then engaging in some sort of lame argument to go on attack or shifting to some other (often contradictory defense). What is decidedly not pivoting--in a thread which wonders aloud whether Obama deserves some blame for Callahan pointing out another situation where a criminal has been given some sort of benefit by the Obama Administration and (coincidentally) winds up killing three people after that benefit. That's certainly germane. And yet again, you cannot answer it.

The pivot, by the way, with this whole "alt-right" nonsense is that you sanitized what you actually wrote and then went onto attack me and tarls as being overly sensitive. Cute.

As for the FSA, over at C & C, you did present some bit of cogency. You noted that the crack/powder disparity was widely criticized and most people thought something had to be done. Ok fine. But that still doesn't excuse the release of Callahan because his "priors" should have kept him behind bars.

As for the "echo chamber" comment--that's just weak. Nothing about anything I write in here or C & C remotely suggests that I am at all interested in an echo chamber. It's not being sensitive to point that out--it's just the truth.

Basically, you made an ill-considered comment and have gotten yourself called out, and there's no good way out for you.

Don't feel bad--I clown suited Stephanos Bibas on this blog. He just turned tail and ran. You just wriggle like a bug in a Venus fly trap.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 10, 2016 9:23:48 AM

and the "sorry if I offended" is not an apology.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 10, 2016 9:27:29 AM

federalist, you impressively continue to dodge the main issues surrounding my comment and Tarls' (seemingly strange) assertion that the comment was a vile smear against you. Let me ask two questions directly so you cannot keep dodging the main issues:

1. Do you ever engage in conversations on sites that might reasonably be considered part of the alt-right? (As for what sites might reasonably qualify as alt-right, I would suggest C&C and/or Power Line might qualify, but I concede that different folks might have different understandings of the term.)

2. Did you perceive my suggestion that you read/comment on some "alt-right" as a vile smear and do you think most reasonable persons would perceive my comment as a vile smear?

Again, federalist, all I have been trying to do with my subsequent statements is to explain why I did not intend nor foresee that my comment to be a vile smear. Indeed, Tarls' reaction struck me as quite strange, and you did not seem even to care/notice the comment until Tarls made a stink about it. And as you continue to bring up the issue, you continue to fail to make clear whether my statement was either inaccurate or perceived by you (or reasonable others) as a vile smear.

Notably, in this current dialogue, commenters other than you and Tarls seem to share my sense that what I said was not vile nor the kind of statement that calls for an apology. Unlike HRC, I did not call you a degenerate, nor did I use any of the mean language you often like to use when insulting others. I merely suggested you engage with alt-right sites in the wake of your reference to Dufrene in the midst of a discussion of a different topic.

I hope you will answer my questions honestly so that I can better understand if I am really off base or, as I think, you have just had fun jumping on the (seemingly strange) Tarls bandwagon.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 10, 2016 2:50:34 PM

Doug, to be honest, I don't really have a deep understanding about "alt-right" websites. I can tell you reliably that I don't go anywhere near sites that speak in terms of dead Hillary. Additionally, when you googled Dufrene, what did you find--sites like Powerline? Or out there sites?

Seems to me you were looking at out there sites and then ascribing to me affinity with them. Now you're backtracking.

I read Powerline and C & C--so what? That doesn't put me in a wackadoodle echo chamber where they talk about dead Hillary.

Dufrene's predations are Obama's responsibility. He affirmatively created the rule that kept Dufrene here. Those victims' families didn't get a visit.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 10, 2016 4:12:51 PM

1. Do you ever engage in conversations on sites that might reasonably be considered part of the alt-right? (As for what sites might reasonably qualify as alt-right, I would suggest C&C and/or Power Line might qualify, but I concede that different folks might have different understandings of the term.)

No. I don't. And no Powerline and C & C aren't alt-right.

2. Did you perceive my suggestion that you read/comment on some "alt-right" as a vile smear and do you think most reasonable persons would perceive my comment as a vile smear?

It's basically a page out of the vile Obama/Hillary playbook--demonization by association. It's underhanded and nasty.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 10, 2016 4:15:11 PM

It seems you equated, federalist, what I wrote with calling you a "wackadoodle" and that you felt this was an effort to "demoniz[e] you by association." But I do not view you as, nor have I ever meant to imply that you are, a "wackadoodle" or a demon by association --- and I apologize for using a phrase that might too readily be interpreted this way. And I am now exhausted by dealing with the feelinga I may have hurt when making an "alt-right" reference simply to respond to your tired assertion that I "pivot" whenever I develop points/ideas that generally seek to amplify/clarify/show-the-implications what gets said at one-sided fora like C & C and PowerLine.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 10, 2016 8:28:23 PM

Doug, you accused me of participating in an echo chamber of the "alt-right", where, your words, you find out that Hillary is going to die.

Try and try as you might, you just can't wriggle out of that--quibbling over whether those sites are "wackadoodle" or whether my feelings are hurt (they aren't) or any of that is a weak attempt to defend something that is just intellectually indefensible. I get it--you didn't think before you commented. We saw that also with the hey 99.9% of other FSA early releasees didn't commit triple murder, so this is a wonderfully successful government program.

To be honest, you say a lot of hard to defend things, and when called out, you throw up a miasma of words.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 12, 2016 7:30:17 AM

Actually, federalist, everything I say is pretty easy to defend; but when you badly mischaracterize what I say, I (perhaps foolishly) often seek to walk very slowly and carefully through what I said to try to ensure at least others are not fooled by your mischaracterizations (even though you clearly want, for unctious reasons, to make sport out of mischaracterizations). It is telling in this respect that, pretty consistently, other commentors see matters my way and not yours.

I could fill volumes with your many mischaracterizations (which you repeat whenever it serves your interests) on topics ranging from Justice Kennedy's Plata opinion to my statements about the importance of human liberty. But, with this latest round of silliness, I am growing ever more inclined to treat you like Supremecy Claus and just tune you out because you seem to have a pathological desire to mischaracterize and then distract from the topic at hand via your mischaracterizations. (Fittingly, this pathology is on full display when you suggest in your latest comment that I claimed the FSA was a "wonderfully successful government program" only because "99.9% of other FSA early releasees didn't commit triple murder." I said no such thing, but you try yet again to support your attacks with mischaracterizations and distractions.)

As you might surmise, I think it useful to explain and defend what I actually say. But I have many better things to do that to constantly address your mischaracterizations and distractions. Finis.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 12, 2016 8:02:10 AM

Wow. Re: success rate. This is what you wrote:

"The FSA was an bipartisan attempt to address this problem, and the fact that many thousands of "over-sentenced" crack dealers had to be resentenced (and because dangerousness was largely ignored at initial sentencing), the law of large numbers necessarily meant that we would get a few Callahans. Indeed, because I have such a low regard for government agents, I am personally surprised we have not seen more Callahans: roughly 7,000 persons got lower retroactive sentences thanks to the FSA, and even if the feds were 99.9% effective at screening for dangerousness, that should result in 7 Callahans. The fact that we have only had 1 suggests the feds have been 99.98% effective in this arena, which is a stunning government success rate in my opinion."

You can wriggle, get indignant or whatever, but the bottom line is that this sentence: "The fact that we have only had 1 [I.e., one triple murderer] suggests the feds have been 99.98% effective in this arena, which is a stunning government success rate in my opinion."

As for Kennedy and Plata, Kennedy took the District Court's "recidivism is increased by overcrowding" expert testimony and posited that "some evidence" supported the idea that releasing a whole bunch of prisoners (who, incidentally would have been hardened by the overcrowding) is beneficial to public safety. That's just nonsense on stilts--in a vacuum, very true--but the fact is that California had X number of criminals and Y spaces--releasing Z number of criminals, due to recidivism was necessarily going to result in more crime than keeping them locked up. This isn't hard, and why you cannot see this is beyond me.

In other words, just because locking up 10 people in a prison designed for 20 inmates will result in less recidivism than locking up 20 in a prison designed for 10, does NOT mean that releasing the 10 from the 20 imprisoned in the 10 capacity prison is safer than having 20 in the prison where the capacity is 10. That's the leap of logic that the district court made. Kennedy's opinion swallowed that. If you want to make the niggling argument that it was within the fact-finding discretion of the lib court, fine. That's weak, but whatever. My original point, of course, is that everyday people would look at that and call BS.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 12, 2016 10:52:27 AM

Doug,

You are acting as a caricature of the dishonest attorney. Your comments on this thread could be an SNL skit.

1) I pointed out that your association was "vile" and it is. There is no defense for accusing someone of living in an "echo chamber" of white nationalists and "Hillary is dying" conspiracy theorists without evidence. But that is not taking offense. It is pointing out your irresponsibility and actions unbecoming someone in your position.

2) Consider this my version of Godwin's Law. The first one who mentions another being "triggered" is the one actually triggered. It is defense by going on the offense. You are angry that your irresponsible comment was called out, so you have to go ad hominem and accuse others of being too sensitive or "triggered."

3) You stated: " perhaps an accurate statement -- that federalist engages in discussions on alt-right websites..."

Once again, that is not what you originally said. You accused him of living in an alt-right "echo chamber."

But here is the more important point. Do you consider it honest to make a such a claim when you have no supporting evidence? Sure, it's "perhaps accurate." Just as it is "perhaps accurate" that you bugger 12 year old boys and torture cats. Would it be responsible (or mannerly) for me to make such claims without some reasonable evidence that it is true? What is your evidence that he is in such an echo chamber?

4) You asked federalist, "1. Do you ever engage in conversations on sites that might reasonably be considered part of the alt-right? (As for what sites might reasonably qualify as alt-right, I would suggest C&C and/or Power Line might qualify, but I concede that different folks might have different understandings of the term.)"

Doug, do you beat your wife?

And your depiction of C&C and PowerLine as possibly "alt right" is hilarious. I suspect the C&C subject matter is too specific and not read by enough people to draw ire from the alt right, but it is traditional conservative in their views. The two biggest contributors are Bill and Kent. Are you accusing them of being white nationalists and against free trade? Evidence? That's right. You don't need evidence. Bill abhors Trump and I suspect Kent is not a big fan either. And the alt right HATES Powerline (whose authors are no fans of Trump). With a passion. They are the epitome of "cuckservatives" in the eyes of the alt right.

BTW, can you point me to ANY posts on Powerline or C&C that talk about "Hillary dying?" One post, Doug. A. Single. Post.

In making such claims, you are either a complete knave or have irreparably soiled your integrity with such nonsense. I'll let you decide.

5) You stated: "It seems you equated, federalist, what I wrote with calling you a "wackadoodle" and that you felt this was an effort to "demoniz[e] you by association." But I do not view you as, nor have I ever meant to imply that you are, a "wackadoodle" or a demon by association..."

No, YOU "equated." YOU accused federalist of living in an "echo chamber" where they talk about "Hillary dying." You are obviously implying that the websites are "wackadoodle" and, logically, federalist must be a "wackadoodle" if he lives in their "echo chamber."

6) Powerline and C&C are not the "media" and are not "academic" websites pretending to be impartial arbiters. They are conservative, support conservative policies, and proudly so.

The irony is that you pretend to be running an academic blog and this it is AT LEAST as much of an "echo chamber" as they are.

7) One final question. I know you are not a litigator, but let's pretend otherwise. You are defending a black client, who loses in a courtroom and gets a stiff sentence from the judge. Would you give an interview on the courthouse steps and say that the judge gave such a stiff sentence to a black defendant because "perhaps" he lives in the alt right echo chamber of Hillary is dying conspiracy theorists? Would you consider that in good taste and manners? Why or why not?

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 12, 2016 12:03:54 PM

"Miasma of words." Bingo. lol

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 12, 2016 12:23:30 PM

1. federalist, I am glad you provided the context for my "stunning government success rate" comment because it should show to any sensible reader that I did not call the FSA a "wonderfully successful government program" only because "99.9% of other FSA early releasees didn't commit triple murder." Rather, my point was that, when having to screen thousands of people quickly for dangerousness long after the fact and with limited time/resources/evidence, it is stunning (and a marker of government screening effectiveness) that we have not yet had many more examples of hind-sight enabled Callahan-like mistakes.

Once again, as this shows, you take my statement out of context, mischaracterize what I say, and then accuse me of "wriggle" when I bring the context back and seek to counter your mischaracterization. Same goes for you approach to Plata/Kennedy --- you call providing accurate nuance/context for a statement to be what "everyday people would look at that and call BS." Even if this is true (and I do not think it is), Kennedy (nor I) am writing assuming an audience of "everyday" people. Rather, this writing is for sophisticated thinkers/lawyers seeking understanding, not sound-bite mischaracterizations. So tiring and so pointless if you are interested in a serious discussion and not name-calling.

2. Tarls, given the reaction/discussion it has engendered with you and federalist, I am sorry my phrase "alt-right echo chamber" has proven so toxic and distracting. Again, given that I get emails praising the alt-right (and that there may be something to HRC's health), I really to not think the term or association is "vile." But you do, and I plan not to use the term anymore for that reason alone. (And, speaking of mischaracterization, I never asserted or suggested federalist "lives" there -- rather the issue only came up because he referenced a name that seems often brought up there).

I will respond to your question #7 when back from class, especially if/when you respond to a follow-ups to point #6:

(A) Do you think Powerline and C&C are fairly considered part of an “alternative right-wing,” which includes conservative-minded, Internet-savvy people who aren’t afraid to express their opinion, especially online"?

(B) Are you asserting that I "pretend to be running an academic blog" that claims to be an "impartial arbiter" of something? What am I pretending to be, in your view and what I am really instead. Thanks in advance for giving me clarity on these fronts.

Oh, I am a litigator, by the way, so the first premise of question #7 is wrong. More on that after class.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 12, 2016 1:29:24 PM

Doug stated: "Again, given that I get emails praising the alt-right (and that there may be something to HRC's health), I really to not think the term or association is "vile.""

Of course you do, which is why you associated such websites as being "Hillary's going to die" echo chambers. That was not a compliment. You were sliming them (appropriately, IMO) and federalist (not appropriately).

You stated: "I never asserted or suggested federalist "lives" there -- rather the issue only came up because he referenced a name that seems often brought up there)."

The only part above that is accurate is that you did not actually use the word "lives." Then again, I never said you did use the word. Here is an exact quote with link:

"7. Sorry you find it annoying, federalist, not to have a discussion in the alt-right echo chamber, but I hope you at least appreciate hearing another perspective on these matters..."

"... it seemed a lot of what I consider "alt-right" websites starting popping up (and informing me Hillary Clinton will be dying real soon)."
http://www.crimeandconsequences.com/crimblog/2016/08/selecting-families-for-preside.html#comments

Three things are quite clear.

1) You are claiming that federalist spends a great deal of time in an "alt-right echo chamber";
2) You find these websites, unsavory, to say the least; and
3) He finds discussing issues in any other forum but "alt right echo chambers" to be "annoying."

Sorry, Doug, but my paraphrase that you are accusing him of "living" in alt right echo chambers is on the spot.

You stated: "I will respond to your question #7 when back from class, especially if/when you respond to a follow-ups to point #6:"

That's cute, Doug. I asked first, but you demand I answer questions asked by you LATER before you will answer mine. I will do it because your questions are absurd and could be swatted away by college freshmen who barely graduated high school, but I want you to know that I did notice.

You asked: "(A) Do you think Powerline and C&C are fairly considered part of an “alternative right-wing,” which includes conservative-minded, Internet-savvy people who aren’t afraid to express their opinion, especially online"?"

First, an "alt-right" website would have to be actually liked by the alt-right or support the alt-right and their causes. Neither do, and Powerline openly fights it.

Second, you redefined alt-right as broadly as you possibly could to "support" your assertion. The problem is that it does not begin to reflect what alt right actually is. By your Frankenition of alt right, Jonah Goldberg, Charles Krauthammer, George Will, Mona Charon, Jay Nordlinger, and Matt Walsh are all alt-right, even though they fight Trump and alt rightists every step of the way. You have defined the term so broadly, it has zero meaning.

You asked: "(B) Are you asserting that I "pretend to be running an academic blog" that claims to be an "impartial arbiter" of something? What am I pretending to be, in your view and what I am really instead. Thanks in advance for giving me clarity on these fronts.

You run this blog as an academic exercise where you state (over and over) that you want to follow the best (liberal) data possible and make "evidence-based" policy recommendations. In reality, this blog is 95% liberal cesspool complaining about how bad Amerikkka is and 5% federalist.

You stated: "Oh, I am a litigator, by the way, so the first premise of question #7 is wrong."

My apologies for being wrong. See how easy that was?

That said, the statement was not the "premise" of anything. Whether or not you are a litigator or "just" a law school professor does not change whether such a statement on the courthouse steps would be ethical and polite.

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 12, 2016 2:20:29 PM

Oh good grief, Doug--do you really think that I was out-of-bounds to attack you for the 99.98% nonsense? C'mon Doug. That's just a foolish statement no matter what the context.

As for Kennedy and Plata--my point was that ordinary people would mock this because it so conflicts with common-sense, and I was arguing that the people of California deserved better. But in any event, you mistake an argument for a concession that the argument is correct. My logic re: public safety is unimpeachably right, and you've NEVER impeached it--you've just lamely said that judges are entitled to those kinds of leaps when "factfinding" in public interest litigation. I don't see how that's the case, i.e., taking the proposition that overcrowding reduces recidivism to, well, we'll increase public safety by releasing prisoners is really "factfinding." It's more like leaping, and Kennedy, by signing onto it, tarnished the Court. There's no good answer to my riposte, and after all these years, you haven't come up with one.

Fact: that there is more recidivism where 20 prisoners are incarcerated in a prison designed to hold 10 prisoners than the opposite (i.e., 10 in a 20-person capacity prison) does not support the conclusion that letting 10 go from the 10-person capacity prison increases public safety. Yet Kennedy parroted that nonsense in a Supreme Court opinion. Where ordinary people can look at something and intuitively know that the logic is flawed, then the Supreme Court can and should be criticized. If you want to be sycophantic and dress it up as nuance and only for the legally-trained, fine, but looking down your nose at me doesn't help your case.

And good grief, what does this sentence say: "The fact that we have only had 1 [Callahan] suggests the feds have been 99.98% effective in this arena, which is a stunning government success rate in my opinion."

Posted by: federalist | Sep 12, 2016 2:57:43 PM

This is so tiresome, and yet strangely fun. Let me work backwards, starting with federalist in this reply, and then using a distinct post to talk with Tarls:

1. Your Plata criticism/nonsense is so misguided, and yet you still think it right, perhaps because you are eager to forget that SCOTUS was reviewing the Plata order for abuse of discretion, not de novo (sorry if that is too much "lawyer talk" for you). Moreover, you again mischaracterize matters, as Kennedy just said: "The three-judge court credited substantial evidence that prison populations can be reduced in a manner that does not increase crime to a significant degree. Some evidence indicated that reducing overcrowding in California’s prisons could even improve public safety." So the "conclusion" that you seem to eager to lampoon was that SCOTUS accepted the lower court's decision to credit expert evidence that ordering CA to figure out some ways over a few years to go from 16 people in a 10-person cell to 13 people in that cell could be done in a "manner that does not increase crime to a significant degree." I am not looking down my nose when I fault your criticism of Plata, rather I am highlighting that your criticism is based on a bald mischaracterization of Plata when you wrongly assert that SCOTUS embraced a claim that "we'll increase public safety by releasing prisoners."

2. The same context-free mischaracterization is at the heart of your effort to attack my statement that we should be stunned that we have not seen more Callahans in light of the challenges the feds have faced implementing FSA-driven retroactivity that calls for screening prior crack defendants for dangerousness. Candidly, I have expected many more Callahan-type stories because of the law of large numbers, and thus I do think it is a kind of "stunning govt success" at screening for dangerousness that we have not yet had more Callahan-type awful crimes from a huge population released early. Critically, the entire FSA is about a lot more than early releases, and I was not talking about the entire FSA. And I think the full story of the FSA, including the early releases, is well covered by USSC reports. If you want to criticize its analysis, go for it. But, again, the context-free mischaracterization of what I/others say gets old quickly and I doubt I will spend much more time on this back and forth on these fronts here.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 12, 2016 5:07:34 PM

Tarls:

1. I still genuinely do not think saying someone is involved in "discussions in the alt-right echo chamber" is akin to calling that person a neo-Nazi. But I sense that is how you perceive such a comment, and I am genuinely sorry to have used a term that some (many?) see as vile in this way. (On this front, I cannot help but note that, according to a WaPo story, Donald Trump Jr. and Roger Stone are now eagerly associating Trump and his mainstream supporters with a number of "alt-right" icons. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/11/an-image-linking-trump-to-the-alt-right-is-shared-by-the-candidates-son/ Thus, it seem that I am not the only one who sees references to the alt-right to be quite not as bad as you continue to believe/assert).

Because I have learned from this dialogue that you and perhaps others read/view the phrase "discussions in the alt-right echo chamber" as a vile association, I am sorry I used the term and I am especially sorry that I got you so bothered by using the term. I surmise you dislike me, but I do not dislike you and I have great respect for your viewpoints based on what I have seen Bill Otis say about your professional history. That history and your reaction to what I thought was just a snide little comment for federalist makes this whole episode another important lesson in being sensitive to how some people use and perceive some terms very differently than how I use and perceive those terms. I am thankful for you giving me that lesson in this interesting context.

2. To answer your #7 question, without any evidence of a judge having been influenced in any decision by "alt-right" commentary, I would not publicly or privately accuse that judge of having his judgment influenced by alt-right commentary. But if that judge, as he was sentencing my client, starting referencing facts/cases/persons that I later found were being widely discussed primarily on alt-right sites, I would be deeply concerned that the judge's decision was improperly influenced by those sites. I then would consider appealing the decision on this basis, as I would feel a professional obligation to represent my client in this manner to ensure the judge's decision was not improperly influenced. In either case, I would never give an interview on the courthouse steps to discuss my concerns, as it is often unethical and always unwise for a lawyer to impugn a judge's integrity publically even if there is some evidence that might justify doing so.

I trust you can see a social and moral difference between talking about what a judge did when sentencing a defendant and making a comment deep in a lengthy comment thread to a person who does not even use his real-name on-line. Moreover, to the extent your main concern is policing blog commentary for "good taste and manners" or being "polite," I genuinely wonder if you believe federalist shows more politeness or good taste and manners in comments than I do. He regularly calls people idiots and stupid and clown, which often strikes me as much less polite and less mannered than 99.9% of what I say in comments. And yet I do not call for apologies or call his comments "vile" largely because I have better things to do than worry about others' manners on the internet (while I try to watch my own manners). Again, seeking to watch my own manners, I again apologize to you personally for using a term you consider vile and not polite. (Also, on this topic, do you think consider it an example of "good taste and manners" or being "polite" to assert that "this blog is 95% liberal cesspool complaining about how bad Amerikkka is"?)

I am not sure what you mean by an when you say I "run this blog as an academic exercise"? I blog because I have things I want to spotlight and say about sentencing law and policy, and I am lucky that I have more time than most to blog because I am a tenured professor who can and does use this blog in a variety of ways to discharge my professional teaching, scholarship and service duties. (I have written a law review article about lawprof blogging which you can find here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=898174).

Most critically for purposes of this conversation, I never claim nor do I desire to claim that I am an "impartial arbiter" of anything. I do not believe anyone can be truly impartial --- we are all, in various was conscious and unconscious, partial due to our backgrounds and experiences, both personal and professional. I do seek to promote empirical data in various ways because I think data provides a sounder basis for discussion, debate and decision-making than does mere appeal to feelings, but I readily concede that data which gets collected and disseminated by me and others is also subject to lots of "partisan" influences. And, I find especially interesting and telling that you find my affinity for data to be a marker of a blog that you assert is "95% liberal cesspool complaining about how bad Amerikkka is."

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 12, 2016 6:29:19 PM

Also, Tarls, I wanted to see your basis for your statement that "Powerline openly fights [the alt-right]," and so I searched "alt-right" at Powerline. The most recent entry was a Sept 9 post praising a recent lengthy CNBC interview of Milo Yiannopoulos, who is described as "the provocateur of the 'alt-right'." www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/09/milo-on-a-roll.php.

Beside the notable Powerline praise for someone who is apparently a big "alt-right" player, this Milo Yiannopoulos interview has him explaining at great lengthy why it is so wrong and wrongful to equate "alt-right" with "white nationalism." So, after seeing that interview (and Powerline's praise of it), I feel ever more confident in my belief that my understanding of "alt-right" as I used the term way back when is more mainstream and common than what you seem to think the term means.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 12, 2016 6:59:54 PM

Re: Plata, I don't know how I can put this any clearer: the expert testimony merely said that overcrowding causes recidivism. That's not evidence that releasing criminals from a current overcrowded situation will enhance public safety. Aside from the technical issue of abuse of discretion (which that is--leaps of logic, by definition are an abuse of discretion), this is public interest litigation--we are talking about releasing criminals from prison--tens of thousands of them. For the Court to even say that, when it so departs from common sense, and actual logic is evidence of a rigged game, and one which the public has every right to harshly criticize. And the criticism can be--um, hmmm, let's see, we're going to let tens of thousands go, and there's evidence that will increase public safety--on what f'in planet? And we know that some of those released have committed crimes for which they would have been incarcerated but for Plata and the Brown-inspired jailbreak. Like I said, not that hard.

As for "alt-right", that you can find respectable people who embrace the term doesn't mean that you didn't mean it in a derogatory way---your derision is evident in your post, and many many people think of "alt-right" as bad.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 13, 2016 8:30:39 AM

The Plata order did not require (nor did it directly lead to) releasing of tens of thousands criminals overnight in California. Rather, it required California to make its prisons less crowded over a number of years (specifically, California was ordered to "reduce its prison population to 137.5% of design capacity"). Among other possible responses, California could have decided to respond to Plata by building more prison capacity (or to buy extra capacity from other states/private suppliers). Kennedy noted this critical reality about the Plata order in the Plata opinion: "The order in this case does not necessarily require the State to release any prisoners. The State may comply by raising the design capacity of its prisons or by transferring prisoners to county facilities or facilities in other States." And this reality highlights the justification for the statement "that reducing overcrowding in California’s prisons could even improve public safety" if this was done in a wise manner that made overcrowded prisons less criminogenic and had California funding reentry efforts for those seeking early release.

There is no leap of logic here other than your persistent mistaken belief that the Plata order required the releasing of "tens of thousands" of criminals. (Moreover, it bears recalling here that the Plata order was in 2011 and in 2014 California hit a record low crime rate (even with, in my view, Jerry Brown and others adopting a very poor response to the Plata order).) You are right that this is "not that hard," federalist, if you actually understand the legal facts/ruling that we are talking about. You don't, and I fear you never will.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 13, 2016 11:42:00 AM

Doug stated: "1. I still genuinely do not think saying someone is involved in "discussions in the alt-right echo chamber" is akin to calling that person a neo-Nazi."

Neo-Nazi is your word, not mine. White nationalism, anti-free trade, etc. Do they have some things in common? Yes. Are they synonyms like you are using them? No.

You stated: "(On this front, I cannot help but note that, according to a WaPo story, Donald Trump Jr. and Roger Stone are now eagerly associating Trump and his mainstream supporters with a number of "alt-right" icons. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/11/an-image-linking-trump-to-the-alt-right-is-shared-by-the-candidates-son/ Thus, it seem that I am not the only one who sees references to the alt-right to be quite not as bad as you continue to believe/assert)."

LOL And this embrace of the "alt-right" is exactly what traditional conservatives abhor about Trump. If not full-throated "alt right", he at least is playing footsie with them. You PROVE my point, hilariously. You are actually making the implicit case that Trump's support of the alt right legitimizes them instead of sullies him.

Here is how the Boston Globe defined the alt-right:

" Donald Trump is getting support — and seeking it — from some of the murkiest, creepiest corners of the Internet."

"This is only the latest example of symbiosis between the Trump campaign and the so-called “alt right” — the alternative universe of white nationalists, authoritarians, Internet provocateurs, and other off-brands that are too diffuse, idiosyncratic, or disreputable to fit within the official Republican mainstream." https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/07/05/donald-trump-alt-right-problem/zgkQv6biIvJV2nUB2eCp1M/story.html

That is pretty standard from just about any mainstream source. Some are much more harsh. So, if you want to pretend that alt right is a compliment, morally neutral, and/or you did not know how most define it, go ahead. Just know that it makes you dishonest.

You stated: "...sorry that I got you so bothered by using the term."

Bothered? Not at all. I just find things like calling people racist, bigot, misogynist, etc. with no evidence in support completely bankrupt. I slept fine every night since you said it but I am going to call out such nonsense.

You stated: "I surmise you dislike me..."

There is a lot to like about you and Bill (who I have enormous respect for) vouches for your character. However, you have a terrible habit that most lawyers have, being more concerned about winning arguments than being honest. I have zero doubt that as soon as I called you on the comment, you knew you were wrong, but the Clinton-like "miasma of words" is in your DNA.

You stated: "To answer your #7 question, without any evidence of a judge having been influenced in any decision by "alt-right" commentary, I would not publicly or privately accuse that judge of having his judgment influenced by alt-right commentary."

But, that is exactly what you did with federalist, and worse. And, no, the name of some guy mentioned by federalist popping up on some alt-right websites is not evidence of federalist's involvement with the alt right. Just as the phrase "living wage" coming up on communist websites does not make a living wage supporter a communist.

You stated: "I trust you can see a social and moral difference between talking about what a judge did when sentencing a defendant and making a comment deep in a lengthy comment thread to a person who does not even use his real-name on-line. Moreover, to the extent your main concern is policing blog commentary for "good taste and manners" or being "polite," I genuinely wonder if you believe federalist shows more politeness or good taste and manners in comments than I do. He regularly calls people idiots and stupid and clown, which often strikes me as much less polite and less mannered than 99.9% of what I say in comments."

I trust you can see the difference between calling someone a clown or stupid and calling them a racist, pedophile, bigot, etc.

You asked: "(Also, on this topic, do you think consider it an example of "good taste and manners" or being "polite" to assert that "this blog is 95% liberal cesspool complaining about how bad Amerikkka is"?)"

Yes, because I can base it in fact. I spent a couple of years here as a regular reader/commenter and, yes, your crew here qualifies for my description. The "Kent as Nazi" episode was notable not because it was in such poor taste, but because it was not extraordinary in any way.

You stated: "And, I find especially interesting and telling that you find my affinity for data to be a marker of a blog that you assert is "95% liberal cesspool complaining about how bad Amerikkka is.""

lol

1) I never complained about your "affinity for data." I do believe that you cherrypick more than most and lack curiosity when it cuts against your preconceived notions, but your premise is off.

2) My comment was obviously referring to your comment crew, as I even specifically mentioned federalist. It is 95% people who hate Amerikkka and federalist. It's an "echo chamber" even with your "affinity for data."

You stated: "I wanted to see your basis for your statement that "Powerline openly fights [the alt-right]," and so I searched "alt-right" at Powerline. The most recent entry was a Sept 9 post praising a recent lengthy CNBC interview of Milo Yiannopoulos, who is described as "the provocateur of the 'alt-right'." www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2016/09/milo-on-a-roll.php."

Well, gee, Doug, how about instead of trying to prove that it doesn't fight the alt right, you prove your assertion that it IS alt right? That IS the way it is supposed to work, correct?

Does calling Milo's act "street theater" sound like support?

The Powerline bloggers all supported people like Rubio, Cruz, Perry, Scott Walker, etc. during the primaries. Not Trump. Any support by them for Trump now is rooted in the fact that he is not Hillary, a completely understandable position.

"...this Milo Yiannopoulos interview has him explaining at great lengthy why it is so wrong and wrongful to equate "alt-right" with "white nationalism." So, after seeing that interview (and Powerline's praise of it), I feel ever more confident in my belief that my understanding of "alt-right" as I used the term way back when is more mainstream and common than what you seem to think the term means."

Did you expect Milo to answer that he IS racist along with the alt-right?

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 13, 2016 12:37:41 PM

One more point.

This all started when federalist brought up the name Kesler Dufrene.

Is federalist's argument made stronger/weaker/or the same if he is an alt-rightist?

Is federalist's argument made stronger/weaker/or the same if alt-right websites write about the case?

If made stronger or weaker, why? (Look up "genetic fallacy")

If it is the same, why bring up that it was on alt-right websites?

We KNOW why. The only logical reason for bringing it up was to smear federalist as an "alt-right echo chamber" guy who believes in "Hillary is dying" conspiracy theories. It's an attempt to discredit HIM instead of his argument. A fair paraphrase of your statement is, "There is no reason to address your point because you are just an alt-right kook."

Then when called on it, you deny that it was meant as an insult even though YOU associated alt-right with conspiracies about Hillary dying.

Doug, that is bush league.

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 13, 2016 3:06:06 PM

Doug, I haven't reviewed Plata, but wasn't one of the issues whether the state could send people out of state? And didn't the three-judge panel reject that? And didn't the Supreme Court say yes that was ok?

Second of all, no, the order didn't specifically require reduction (or reduction in intake, which is the same thing)---but requiring that the prison system somehow have tens of thousands less is functionally the same thing. Building prisons doesn't happen in a day, and private prisons cost $$. In any event, the leap of logic is just so obvious--no amount of lipstick is going to pretty up that pig. And public interest litigation, Doug, should involve more than guesswork from the courts on the public safety effects of the order involved in Plata--taking the water is wet conclusion that overcrowding increases recidivism (all things being equal) to the well, if we somehow figure out how to not have so many people in California prisons, public safety will be improved. It's a polyannaish throwaway line that is evidence that the federal courts didn't give public safety the proper consideration. Like I said, not hard.

And I have to laugh out loud at the Cali crime is down stuff--that's not the test. The issue is but for causation of particular crimes, and that's undeniable. People have been victimized as a result of people who would have been locked up in state prisons but for Plata and Brown. And it appears that a lot of "low-level" crime is way up in areas in California.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 13, 2016 3:06:24 PM

Conservative Jonah Goldberg defines the alt right: "...major politician defended the conservative movement and the Republican Party from guilt-by-association with a fringe group of racists, anti-Semites, and conspiracy theorists who have jumped enthusiastically on the Donald Trump train: the so-called alt-right."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldberg-alt-right-gop-clinton-20160830-snap-story.html

Another traditional conservative, Jay Nordlinger: "The “alt” people — the “alt-Right,” or “alternative Right” — use the word “cuck” a lot. This stands for “cuckold.” The alts believe that the conservatives let dark-skinned people come in and rape their women and take over the country. Hence, they are “cucks.” So we writers at National Review, for example, would be “cuckservatives,” led by “William F. Cuckley.” That’s the way they talk."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/437975/how-trump-folk-talk

Cathy Young at The Federalist: "The Alt-Right movement counters the toxic culture of the left with a toxic brew of its own: a mix of old bigotries and new identity and victimhood politics adapted for the straight white male." http://thefederalist.com/2016/04/14/you-cant-whitewash-the-alt-rights-bigotry/

BTW, the above article references pieces by popular alt-rightists supporting eugenics on the basis that we do not want too many babies from "the least intelligent and responsible" who happen to be "disproportantely black, Hispanic, and poor. I strongly recommend reading the entire article.

Mona Charen: "By hiring Steve Bannon of Breitbart, the candidate is signaling that the alt-right, nationalist, protectionist, loutish fringe is going to pilot this ship straight into the reef." https://patriotpost.us/opinion/44372

Not much there about "internet savvy" (your definition).

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 13, 2016 3:30:29 PM

Tarls, my alt-right comment came toward the end of a dozen+ lengthy substantive responses to points/questions that you and federalist and Bill Otis were directing my when I tried to bring a different perspective to a conversation about who should be blamed for the FSA and Wendell Callahan's horrible murders at C&C. In many of federalist's comments, he complained about me "pivoting" (whatever that means) and stated that he finds it "so annoying ... discussing anything with Professor Berman." Against that backdrop/context --- and the reality here that I engage at great lengthy with federalist on so many topics --- it strikes me as genuinely "kooky" for you to read my statement to be either a personal attack on federalist OR as comparable to saying "There is no reason to address your point because you are just an alt-right kook."

I actually care MUCH more about being honest than winning arguments, and I continue to state honestly that my use of the phrase "alt-right echo chamber" on Aug 28 at C&C was not an effort to brand (or even associate) federalist with White Nationalists or Neo-Nazis, rather it was an effort to suggest that what annoys federalist in our discussion is my willingness to engage in extended substantive discussions without being put off by his eagerness to call me and other people names. You are correct that I did not mean "alt right" as either a "compliment [or] morally neutral," but I did mean it only as a snide response to federalism's assertion that it is "so annoying ... discussing anything with Professor Berman" and also as a general expression of my disaffinity for his tendency at times not to care so much about "good taste and manners" and being "polite." My understanding then (and now) is that what defines the modern "alt-right" more than white nationalism is an eagerness to be "non-PC" (and to be "Internet provocateurs" to use a phrase from the Boston Globe description). I fear that because you think lawyers are dishonest that I am being dishonest when I explain myself in this way. In so doing, you seem to be the one most eager to attribute guilt by association.

And this all gets back to the irony that this all started when, in a conversation about Wendell Callahan and sentencing reform, federalist brought up (pivoted?) to Kesler Dufrene, a name that I had to google. Google gave me links to a number of RECENT mentioned that seemed to be a part of an "alt-right" universe. Here are examples:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260994/medias-cover-immigrant-mass-shootings-ann-coulter
http://www.vdare.com/articles/what-is-immigrant-mass-murder-syndrome
http://ninjapundit.blogspot.com/2015/12/kesler-dufrene-miami-shooting-spree.html

Of course, the mere fact that unsavory folks stress a good point does not in itself weaken that point. But federalist was making a point about immigration policy/practice and referencing a now-4-year-old case, whereas the conversion we were having was about sentencing policy/practice and a 2016 case. And when I looked up the now-4-year-old case, I discovered lots of distinctive websites making much this case NOW than I found anywhere else. Again, my miasma of words is my effort to explain what I said and also to explain why I was so surprised that you, Tarls, reacted so negatively to it and why I continue to be surprised that federalist decided in this post over here to assert I "owe" him an apology. How would you feel if many of my commenters starting saying over at C&C or elsewhere, Tarls, that you owe them an apology for your impolite smear that they are all part of a "liberal cesspool" of persons who "who hate Amerikkka"?

I do agree that there is a lot of bush league stuff going on here, but most of it has to do with you and federalist being seemingly so eager to overreact to one phrase taken out of context. That all said, I have learned in this process still more about you and your views, Tarls, and also about how some now define the "alt-right" and I have now become especially sensitized about using a term that is interpreted by some to be a synonym with white nationalism. I also have come to be confident based on this discussion that, if you really find the alt-right universe so vile, that you will not be voting for Trump and will be actively urging others not to vote for Trump. Is that correct?

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 13, 2016 5:01:07 PM

I'll respond later--I did mean to say that I hadn't reviewed Plata in a while.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 13, 2016 5:39:07 PM

I look forward to what more you have to say, federalist. I am especially interested in your honest sense of whether I really "owe" you an apology for a reference to you and the "alt-right echo chamber" any more than Tarls might now "owe" apologies to all/many/any other commenters on this blog after asserting twice that they are all part of a "liberal cesspool" of persons who "who hate Amerikkka".

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 13, 2016 5:47:56 PM

Doug stated: "Against that backdrop/context --- and the reality here that I engage at great lengthy with federalist on so many topics --- it strikes me as genuinely "kooky" for you to read my statement to be either a personal attack on federalist OR as comparable to saying "There is no reason to address your point because you are just an alt-right kook.""

If not an attack, then, what is it? Implying that someone gets his information from disreputable sources is not an attack on the information. It is an attack on the individual. It is irrelevant how many times you argued back and forth about Callahan. When he brought up Dufrene, you went ad hominem and smeared him as someone who frequents websites that proclaim "Hillary is dying" INSTEAD OF discussing Dufrene.

You stated: "I actually care MUCH more about being honest than winning arguments,..."

I wish I could see it that way. To start, you have been holding the simultaneous positions that you did not see "alt right" as particularly insulting while also believing it is full of people who believe Hillary was dying. And this is BEFORE Sunday.

You stated: "...and I continue to state honestly that my use of the phrase "alt-right echo chamber" on Aug 28 at C&C was not an effort to brand (or even associate) federalist with White Nationalists or Neo-Nazis, rather it was an effort to suggest that what annoys federalist in our discussion is my willingness to engage in extended substantive discussions without being put off by his eagerness to call me and other people names."

No, you said he was annoyed by having to discuss an issue somewhere besides in an "alt-right echo chamber" where they discuss how "Hillary is going to die really soon."

You stated: "You are correct that I did not mean "alt right" as either a "compliment [or] morally neutral," but I did mean it only as a snide response to federalism's assertion that it is "so annoying ... discussing anything with Professor Berman" and also as a general expression of my disaffinity for his tendency at times not to care so much about "good taste and manners" and being "polite.""

Could you provide a quote and link from that thread to your complaint about any "disaffinity for [federalist's] tendency at times not to care so much about "good taste and manners" and being "polite?"

I do not remember any such conversation but maybe I missed it and the actual comment in question certainly does not invite any such interpretation.

Here is the exchange in question:

Federalist-This thread demonstrates what is so annoying about discussing anything with Professor Berman.
Obviously, the Callahan case has generated significant negative attention--after all, three were murdered, and the federal government let the guy loose who did it. When faced with this appalling crime, Doug's initial responses (on other threads) were to..."

Your reply: "Sorry you find it annoying, federalist, not to have a discussion in the alt-right echo chamber, but I hope you at least appreciate hearing another perspective on these matters."

No complaints about any lack of manners.

You stated: "And this all gets back to the irony that this all started when, in a conversation about Wendell Callahan and sentencing reform, federalist brought up (pivoted?) to Kesler Dufrene, a name that I had to google. Google gave me links to a number of RECENT mentioned that seemed to be a part of an "alt-right" universe. Here are examples:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260994/medias-cover-immigrant-mass-shootings-ann-coulter
http://www.vdare.com/articles/what-is-immigrant-mass-murder-syndrome
http://ninjapundit.blogspot.com/2015/12/kesler-dufrene-miami-shooting-spree.html"

Also on the first page of Google (which your vdare and front page mag articles did not make):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2090532/Haitian-man-freed-Obama-halted-deportations-earthquake-went-murder-people.html
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Suspect-in-North-Miami-Triple-Murder-Killed-Self-Police-137084198.html
http://www.bradenton.com/news/local/crime/article34537482.html

Does making some alt right website mean the story is not noteworthy? Then, what was your point?

You asked: "How would you feel if many of my commenters starting saying over at C&C or elsewhere, Tarls, that you owe them an apology for your impolite smear that they are all part of a "liberal cesspool" of persons who "who hate Amerikkka"?"

I would laugh. The difference is that I can back up my statement. You could not.

The truth is not a smear. Making a claim about someone that is not true (or, at least, no evidence for it) IS a smear. You have zero evidence and admitted it. Your only defense was to say, "perhaps he does". That's incredibly weak.

You stated: "I do agree that there is a lot of bush league stuff going on here, but most of it has to do with you and federalist being seemingly so eager to overreact to one phrase taken out of context."

LOL I have provided full context many times with quotes, accurate paraphrases, etc. I believe I even provided a link at some point above.

You stated: " I also have come to be confident based on this discussion that, if you really find the alt-right universe so vile, that you will not be voting for Trump and will be actively urging others not to vote for Trump. Is that correct?"

I do not support Trump in any way, shape, or form. I will write-in in November or just not vote at top of ticket. As far as others, I have lost social media "friends" by the bucket load over my Trump position in the primaries. Support for him when other candidates were available was a cult following equal to Obama's in 2008. Some were alt-right and many others uncritically bought what he was peddling. That said, I do feel it is reasonable at this point to hold your nose and vote Trump on the basis of "at least he is not Hillary." I do not necessarily agree and I will not do it, but I can at least understand the position. As far as Hillary, she also does not meet my minimum threshold (which is not even that high) of decency and integrity to earn my vote and serve. Gary Johnson fails on at least two issues (religious liberty and abortion) and is a nut.

Posted by: TarlsQtr | Sep 13, 2016 7:33:53 PM

Tarls, I do not seek to attack people, but I do seek to responds attacks on me. As you and Bill and federalist took me on at C&C, federalist started and ended his comments going after me this way: "This thread demonstrates what is so annoying about discussing anything with Professor Berman.... But heck, Doug can't even assign blame to Obama for the predations of Kesler Dufrene."

I googled Kesler Dufrene, and I saw one of the news pieces you linked dated January 2012. I thought, why is heck is federalist here now deciding to attack me based on a case from way back in 2011-12. I thereafter looked for more recent references to Kesler Dufrene, where I found the alt-right links I noted making much of the case circa 2015-16. Thus, I jumped to the (apparently incorrect) conclusion that federalist was bringing up a five-year-old case because the "alt-right echo chamber" is continuing to discuss the case as an example of Obama's failings.

Of course, the fact that it seemed that only alt-right sites were still talking about Kesler Dufrene is not itself a reason to say this is not a point worthy of discussion, but it is a not-unreasonable basis for me to think that federalist sometimes spends time in the "alt-right echo chamber." I trust you can get the sequence and the thinking behind my response to federalist's curious Dufrene attack: (1) federalist attacks me from left field based on a (mysterious to me) case/name from four+ years ago, (2) I look up the (mysterious to me) reference, and come across only alt-right sites still talking about this case, and thus I assume (3) that federalist thought about bringing up this old case because he engages with some alt-right sites that are still talking about this case. My snarky remark was a result of my (apparently inaccurate) belief that a federalist attack on me based on Kesler Dufrene NOW was a result of his reading/engaging with sites still talking about Kesler Dufrene NOW.

As I continue to say honestly, I did not then (and still do not now) think saying that a person engages with alt-right sites is the same as saying a person is a neo-Nazi or a white-nationalist or racist or vile. I now understand that you and perhaps others think the phrase "alt-right" is a smear comparable to these other terms, but there is plainly continued debate on this front. Put simply, "alt-right" is a vague term, and I surmise all sorts of different folks have all sorts of different reasons to define it in different ways. Whatever the "proper" definition, I continue to assert that I did not consider the reference any more vile than, for example, saying someone is among those "who hate Amerikkka" while inhabiting a "liberal cesspool." And that is why I was so surprised you made such a big deal about this "alt-right" phrase and why I found it interesting that federalist came into this blog to say I owe him an apology for using this phrase.

You assert, Tarls, that you "can back up [your] statement" that all commentators here other than federalist are part of a "liberal cesspool" of persons "who hate Amerikkka". Can you please do so ASAP for frequent commentators like "Soronel Haetir" AND "Joe" AND "Daniel" AND "Zac B." AND "Dave from Texas" AND "MidWestGuy." You claim your blanket smear of all of them (and many other commentors here) is based in fact and can be backed up. I hope you will show me the evidence you claim you can provide.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 13, 2016 9:20:28 PM

Doug--not my fault you googled Kesler Dufrene and came up with alt-right sites yapping about the death of Hillary. You then associated me with that cesspool. Honest mistake? Well, not really. You defined the alt right echo chamber and stuck me into it.

No, my feelings aren't hurt. I find most of this laughable. You've changed your explanation more than Hillary. Now it's because I am a big bad meanie who says that it;s so annoying to debate someone who throws all sorts of things out there and then spins and twists out of what he said. The Callahan case is but one example.

Doug, when you're faced with your own quote, you can't even own up---you threw out the 99.98% thing--it's laughable. And the whole "alt-right" thing--you actually tried to argue that it's not so bad--now it's gee, it's federalist's fault because he so happened to pick a case that's talked about there. But I've been talking about Dufrene for years.

It is also surpassing strange that you think that Dufrene is somehow NOT germane to a discussion about Obama's responsibility for murders.

I wanted to mention this--but I didn't before. Your off-hand flippant comment about 99.98% effective is pretty appalling if you think about it.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 13, 2016 11:05:56 PM

federalist, you have not addressed whether you think I owe you an apology more than Tarls owes an apology to those who comment here.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 14, 2016 6:38:55 AM

Doug, I am not getting into that--you can't even look at the 99.98% quote and admit it's (at best) silly hyperbole and that the criticism was spot on. You can't even understand that saying that I participate in the "alt-right echo chamber" is, objectively, saying that I am at least comfortable around, at best, Buchanan-like nonsense--which is a slur. Subjectively, you knew the places were pretty far past the last stop, but said that I apparently interacted (and liked) what is said there. All that from what, pointing out that the Con Law prof's policy of non-deportation to Haiti released a dangerous criminal to kill three people?

Like I said, my feelings aren't hurt. But you crossed a line, and your efforts to wriggle out of the things you've written speak for themselves.

And as for Plata--tell Cali its capacity is tens of thousands less, but hey, there's evidence that's gonna improve public safety because golly gee, some experts made the statement that overcrowding increases recidivism--all the lawyerly evasions can't hide the utter ridiculousness of that viewpoint--and no, it's not a debating point--it's public safety, and it shows that the public got short shrift---and now there are people paying the price. When the grievous price of kindness to criminals is pointed out, you rely on illogic (gee Cali's crime rate is down) or, in the case of Callahan, a flippant line about the government being 99.98% successful--and then when called out, you wax indignant.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 14, 2016 9:40:22 AM

federalist, I asked a simple question based on your very first sentence of the first comment in this thread that got all this alt-right silliness started. You said: "Doug, you owe me an apology." In response, I have (1) said I am sorry if I hurt your feeling (but I apparently didn't), and (2) explained the origins and context for my "alt-right echo chamber" response to your left-field attack on me at C&C about old immigration case I had never heard about before you attacked me about it.

Now, hoping to end this, I really just want to know, after all this verbiage, if (A) you still feel that I "owe [you] an apology," and (B) whether you think Tarls twice-repeated "liberal cesspool/hate Amerikka" statements about folks like Soronel Haetir and other commenters here also creates an apology obligation.

I am still waiting for Tarls to back up his "liberal cesspool/hate Amerikka" statements with regard to Soronel Haetir and others, but in the meantime I sincerely hope you will focus on providing clear simple answers to questions (A) and (B). Again, I press this because the first comment here that got all this started was that I "owed" you an apology. I simply want to know if you feel that I "owe" you something and I also want to know if you feel Tarls should likewise be "owing" based on his repeated impolite (and I think unjustifiable) statements about all my commenters in this thread.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 14, 2016 1:16:03 PM

Doug, you associated me, deliberately, with websites that traffic in the Hillary is going to die nonsense. And you, to be charitable, associated me with the alt-right negligently--then you tried to blame me for raising a legitimate issue (if we're talking about Obama's responsibility for triple murderers, seems Kesler Dufrene is germane).

Yes you owe an apology. And not the "if I offended kind"--the hey, I stepped over the line kind.

And you want me to get involved with your beef with Tarls? Um no.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 14, 2016 3:12:33 PM

I have not sought to "blame" you for anything, federalist, and now I think you owe me an apology for your deliberate (or negligent) false accusation that I sought to blame you for anything!!!

Just kidding. Now, kidding aside, I am more than willing, in order to maintain our friendship, to say I am sorry if you still genuinely feel that I owe you an apology. So:

federalist, I am sorry I stepped over the line with a comment using the phrase "alt-right echo chamber" that associated you with the most vile/evil part of the "alt-right" internet universe.

Now that you have confirmed that you still thought I owed you an apology and now I have given you that apology, I sincerely do want your opinion on whether you think Tarls' twice-repeated "liberal cesspool/hate Amerikka" statements about folks like Soronel Haetir and other commenters here also creates an apology obligation.

Given the context and explanation of my comments, I genuinely did not think I owed you an apology. But you stated you felt differently, and I respect your opinions and thus have now responded accordingly out of respect for your opinion.

To the same end and in the same spirit, I sincerely am eager to hear your opinion about whether you think Tarls' twice-repeated "liberal cesspool/hate Amerikka" statements about folks like Soronel Haetir and other commenters here is comparable to my comment or instead very different.

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 14, 2016 4:12:43 PM

"Thus, I jumped to the (apparently incorrect) conclusion that federalist was bringing up a five-year-old case because the "alt-right echo chamber" is continuing to discuss the case as an example of Obama's failings."

"blaming" is a fair characterization of that . . . . and yeah, it's incorrect--I don't waste my time with those sorts of places--Kesler Dufrene has been an issue (like Musa Ali Daqduq) that I have raised numerous times, as it, in my view, is truly revealing of just how bad Barack Obama is.

In any event, I am not going to comment on Tarls' debate with you. I will say that a lot of the libs take potshots at the substance and then turn tail and run--ever see a lib really get into it and defend a stay vote?

I appreciate the discussion. I really don't take anything personally, and I get that you probably thought that I was actually going there and soaking in the hate, but you made a bad mistake there.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 15, 2016 9:03:02 AM

An explanation of how I came to an inaccurate conclusion is soooo different than blaming you, federalist. That should be obvious to you, and it is obvious to me that this is yet another example of your eagerness to mischaracterize what I say and then attack me for the mischaracterization.

But, critically, I am used to this, and (like you) I see this kind of back-and-forth as part of a robust heated discussion between people who respect each other. I surmise this is the nature of our discourse in all ways, which is why I will never get upset or start asking for apologies. It also explains why I was so surprised when Tarls freaked out over one phrase I used in a snarky comment to you over at C&C.

Meanwhile, seeking of Tarls, it seems now he has "turned tail and run when" I asked him to back up his impolite comments about all my commenters. And I wish you'd be willing to call him on this, federalist, as much as you are willing to call out the so-called "libs"

Posted by: Doug B. | Sep 15, 2016 9:18:46 AM

If I spent all my time calling out, I'd get nothing done. Tarls probably feels the same about you on some of the points.

We'll see what happens, btw, with the shooting in Columbus.

Posted by: federalist | Sep 15, 2016 10:36:51 AM

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