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October 29, 2023
"Original Understanding, Punishment, and Collateral Consequences"
The title of this post is the title of this notable new article authored by Brian Murray and now available via SSRN. Here is its abstract:
Can Founding-era understandings of punishment limit the reach of punitive state activity, specifically with respect to automatic collateral consequences? This Article begins to tackle that question. For over a century, the Supreme Court has struggled to define the boundaries of crime and punishment. Under current doctrine, a deprivation constitutes punishment when it furthers a legislatively assigned penal purpose. A retributive purpose is sufficient, whereas traditionally instrumentalist purposes, such as deterrence, rehabilitation, or incapacitation, are not. Scholars have criticized this framework for several reasons, highlighting its jurisprudential assumptions, philosophical confusion, historical inconsistency, unworkability, complexity, and failure to reflect the essentially punitive nature of many, if not most, of the “collateral consequences” that flow from a conviction.
This Article offers a different critique along methodological grounds, arguing that existing doctrine is divorced from core jurisprudential premises in the broader constitutional tradition and the original meaning and understanding of crime and punishment. First, while the American Constitution and legal tradition permit legislative determination of new types of crimes and the quantity of punishment, the understanding of crime and punishment at the time of the Founding was much simpler than the understanding reflected by existing doctrine. Current law mistakenly defers to legislative judgment for resolving the definitional question, all but guaranteeing legislative overreach. Second, the Court’s precedents have restricted the only sufficient penal purpose to retribution despite significant philosophical and legal history suggesting early American thinkers, reformers, and the Framers considered other purposes to be punitive. Founding era attitudes relating to the justifications for and purposes of punishment, and the types of deprivations carried out by the state in the wake of conviction, suggest a thicker understanding of punishment that contemplates both retributive and instrumentalist purposes.
Put simply, there is ample evidence that Founding-era thinkers understood punishment to include state-imposed suffering that served retributive and non-retributive purposes. The meaning of punishment was informed by an array of philosophical concepts, historical practices, and an understanding of criminal law and its enforcement built from liberal premises that also are instrumentalist. Many early punishments had stigmatic, incapacitative, or rehabilitative purposes, and reformers often pointed to instrumentalist purposes to justify modification of punishment practices, leaving room for the punishment label to apply to more state-sanctioned deprivations than are currently classified as punishment. By contrast, existing doctrine narrowly conceives the meaning of the term “punishment”. If “purpose” is the lodestar, then the definition of punishment should be broader based on the historical evidence. In an era of overwhelming collateral consequences, lawmakers and judges who take the original meaning of terms seriously for purposes of constitutional interpretation should take note when either classifying or adjudicating the character of a deprivation carried out by the government. These findings furnish grounds for questioning the modern classification of many automatic collateral consequences as non-punitive measures, providing potential limits that are consistent with Founding-era conceptions of punishment.
October 29, 2023 at 02:03 PM | Permalink
Comments
OT but ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
https://redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2023/10/30/got-bipped-karma-bites-woke-soros-backed-alameda-county-da-pam-price-right-where-it-hurts-n2165701
Posted by: federalist | Oct 30, 2023 4:23:20 PM
The problem for ex-cons is not so much the fact of their conviction, but that for so many of them, the attitudes and behaviors that brought the conviction about either haven't changed or haven't changed enough to be worth it to an employer to hire them.
Posted by: Bill Otis | Nov 2, 2023 11:29:26 AM
Mr. Otis: Has anyone studied the recidivism rate as a function of how long the former prisoner has been out of prison and had a perfectly clean record.
I'd love to hear you attempt to justify my continuing to suffer collateral consequences 46 years after my alleged crime, despite my perfectly clean record before and since. Again, that's a crime for which I proved my innocence two years later, only to be told the proof was irrelevant due to Virginia's notorious 21-day rule. Go ahead and try.
I'm curious what you would say if you were falsely convicted of murdering me in Virginia, and I showed up alive and well 22 days later. Would you be okay with spending the rest of your life in a Virginia prison? Would you want me to visit you there? Would you want me to write on your behalf to the parole -- never mind, Virginia abolished parole. 30 years ago.
Posted by: Keith Lynch | Nov 2, 2023 5:14:16 PM
Keith Lynch --
Unlike your remarks, which as usual concern your continuing to live in the distant past and continuing to paint yourself as a victim, my remarks were about the subject matter of Doug's post. I'm going to leave it that way.
You pleaded guilty to a felony. That was your decision not mine. I never so much as heard of you or your case until decades later when you started obsessing about it here. If there are continuing significant consequences to it so many years afterwards, which I doubt, you brought them on yourself.
"I'm curious what you would say if you were falsely convicted of murdering me in Virginia, and I showed up alive and well 22 days later. Would you be okay with spending the rest of your life in a Virginia prison? Would you want me to visit you there?"
I'd say that you should get a grip, but it's way too late for that. To be frank, your problems at this stage are not legal in nature. They're in other areas, areas where I am not trained to be able to provide assistance even were I so inclined.
Posted by: Bill Otis | Nov 2, 2023 9:47:24 PM
> Unlike your remarks, which as usual concern your continuing to live
> in the distant past and continuing to paint yourself as a victim, my
> remarks were about the subject matter of Doug's post. I'm going to
> leave it that way.
the subject matter of Doug's post is collateral consequences. It's
right there in the title. And that's what I discussed. I mentioned
my case because it's the one I'm most familiar with. The fact that my
case was, by your own admission, "in the distant past," is precisely
what makes it relevant to a discussion of collateral consequences.
Which, in my case, like millions of others, have extended all the way
from "the distant past" to the present, and beyond. You might as well
criticize a biologist for continuing to study life, given that life
began in the distant past.
Again I ask, not just you, but everyone, whether it really makes sense
to extend serious life-altering collateral consequences for decade
after decade, for someone with a perfectly clean record, except for
that one case, before and since. And who was later proven innocent,
albeit not within the required three weeks -- mainly because neither
the cops nor my defense "team" could be bothered to visit the crime
scene.
Surely someone has studied recidivism rates as a function of how long
since one's last conviction? If so, what was the result? After how
many years is an ex-convict's risk of recidivism no higher than that
of someone else the same age? I very much doubt it's more than a
decade.
My record has been clean for longer than most people's, since most
people alive today weren't born yet when my alleged crime happened,
and nobody gets credit (or blame) for anything that happened before
they were born. So a 22-year-old has had a clean record for at most
22 years, while mine has been clean for more than twice as long.
And millions of equally innocent Americans have had a far worse time
in the system than I have. I personally know several of them. You
once asked for any example of an innocent person executed in the US in
the past 50 years. I immediately named one, Cameron Todd Willingham,
a victim of forensic pseudoscience. You later asked the same question
again, having never acknowledged my reply.
> You pleaded guilty to a felony. That was your decision not mine.
Indeed, though I either didn't know it was a felony or didn't know
what "felony" meant. And I certainly didn't know there would be any
collateral consequences. Not a day goes by that I don't blame myself
for my gullibility, trusting the police, my court-appointed lawyer,
and the system. That's not a mistake I will ever make again.
> I never so much as heard of you or your case until decades later
> when you started obsessing about it here.
Am I obsessing? When was the last time I mentioned it here before
this thread? Two months ago. Is that your idea of an obsession?
Would you consider me obsessive about hand washing if I washed them
only once every couple of months?
I never blamed you personally. But you're known by the company
you keep. Similarly, like all rational people, I don't blame the
Palestinians as a whole for the horrific crime Hamas committed in
Israel last month. But if someone admits to being a Hamas member, and
states that he regards the attack on innocent men, women, and children
as perfectly justified, but insists that he didn't personally take
part in that specific attack, I would still regard him as a terrorist
and as a horrible human being.
You have defended police lying, even though that causes gullible
innocent people to believe they are criminally insane for committing
serious crimes and repressing all memory of them. In countless cases
this has led to false confessions, false guilty pleas, and even
suicide. You are not on the side of truth and justice. You are
on the side of lies and injustice.
> If there are continuing significant consequences to it so many years
> afterwards, which I doubt,
Then you know nothing about collateral consequences. Employers,
colleges, and landlords typically check one's record all the way back
to age 18. I could and did get a security clearance just four years
after my release from prison, but the Smith Amendment has long since
stripped every "felon" of their clearances. If someone were to plant
a gun in my home, I would get a mandatory five-year prison sentence.
Many countries, including Canada, won't let me visit. And there are
new collateral consequences being added every year by every "law and
order" politician. They vary widely between states, and it's all but
impossible to keep track of all of them. I am allowed to vote, but
that "right" was restored just seven years ago.
> you brought them on yourself.
Yes, for the crime of profound gullibility. Congratulations to your
team of liars and scoundrels for successfully deceiving me. You must
be so proud of them.
If you prosecuted a con man, all he had to do was blame his victims
for being stupid enough to trust him, and you would have praised
him for his skill and dropped the charges? And charged his victims
instead?
> "I'm curious what you would say if you were falsely convicted of
> murdering me in Virginia, and I showed up alive and well 22 days
> later. Would you be okay with spending the rest of your life in a
> Virginia prison? Would you want me to visit you there?"
I would like a straight answer for once.
> I'd say that you should get a grip, but it's way too late for that.
> To be frank, your problems at this stage are not legal in nature.
> They're in other areas, areas where I am not trained to be able to
> provide assistance even were I so inclined.
Are you implying that I'm mentally ill for bringing up collateral
consequences in a thread about collateral consequences, using the
case I know best as an example? And for once again pointing out
your obvious character flaws? And your appalling ignorance of how
long felony collateral consequences last and how severe they are?
Maybe if I swear under oath that I will never again believe anything
said by any past or present cop, prosecutor, court-appointed lawyer,
judge, or politician, the authorities will concede that I'm no longer
guilty of gullibility. and will restore all my rights. (But they why
would I believe that they had been restored?)
Posted by: Keith Lynch | Nov 3, 2023 9:49:39 AM